The Fastest Way Out is Through: My Interview with Bree Groff
This article is part of the Authentic Leader Interview Series created by Breean Elyse Miller.
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I first stumbled upon Bree Groff when she was the CEO of the organization design consultancy NOBL Collective.
In 2019, she joined the team at SYPartners (one of my longtime company crushes!), where she’s on a mission to help companies not simply endure change, but become skilled at—and find joy in—transformation.
For more than a decade, she has focused on transformation, innovation, and organizational design, advising leaders at companies including Calvin Klein, Adobe, Google, Etsy, Capital One, and Dropbox.
In this interview, we explore:
How organizational change is powered by personal transformation
Why having perspective is a critical skill for leaders
How the best way to prepare for and process change is to FEEL it
Why it’s important to stay “in the fire”
How to run change experiments in our own lives
Without further ado, here's my interview with Bree Groff.
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Breean: You’ve been a change agent, guiding companies through change and transformation, for the bulk of your career. To quote you, “Organizational change is just individual change at scale. And so to transform a company, an industry, or the world, we must first understand change at the human level.”
Could you speak to your views on the role of personal transformation in the context of organizational change?
Bree: Organizations, at their simplest, are a series of decisions made by the humans who work within them. Day in, day out, it's the decisions big and small of which product to invest in, what to make the company time-off policy, what to say in the email to a client. Sometimes you can transform a company through just a few big decisions at the top—say through an M&A or a reorg. But I might even argue that those aren't transformations, just merely changes.
To transform an organization, you must transform the daily decision making of its people, and that is a hard thing to do! It's changing mindsets and behaviors, and that is better done through inspiration than mandate.
When working with clients I'm always thinking through whether people are inspired to make different decisions, whether they are equipped with the right skills and resources, and whether the organization is making that individual change the path of least resistance. When you have all of those things working in concert, that's when you see transformation at scale.
Breean: As a self-titled “change junkie”, what is your personal practice for building self-awareness and emotional agility?
Bree: When I was 17, I went to the forest preserve near my parents’ house, sat on the grass, and wrote my college application essay about perspective. I made the case that having perspective was the single most important characteristic of a leader, and perhaps of a human as well. I suppose I felt I needed to do that writing amongst nature, away from my day to day. In hindsight, it was one of my better thoughts, and it got me into college!
By perspective, I meant the ability to know what is a big deal and what is a small deal, what is mission-critical and what is nice to have. And perhaps by extension, what is worthy of your emotional energy.
There are times in my career (or even in my week) when I feel so plugged into the matrix that is work that I can't tell what's truly important. Everything feels like a top priority. Over the years, I haven't gotten any better at consistently maintaining perspective, but I have gotten better at recognizing when I don't have it and taking time to regain it.
Before COVID, traveling to a different country always helped me reset. But on a smaller scale, so does talking with my executive coach, closing my eyes and listening to the church bells down the block that ring every day at noon, calling my family.
Breean: How do you ready yourself for change in your own life?
Bree: The speed at which we evolve and embrace change is the speed at which we can emotionally process it. That processing requires actually feeling the change. Good, bad, or other—feeling a change is what makes us feel alive.
For example, I love moving. I've moved 5 times in the last 10 years. Every time I'm about to move, I give myself time to really feel sad—to miss my neighborhood, my apartment, the little things like how I know exactly how the floorboards creak.
I acknowledge the end of one chapter in my life as I turn to the next. Honestly, I remember crying before leaving each and every apartment. But I look back on those moments fondly. They were poignant, rich, and mile markers in my life.
Of course, some changes aren't as welcome or as pleasant as finding a new home, but the strategy is sound no matter the change: let yourself feel it. The fastest way out is through.
Breean: You must be surrounded by change experts a lot. Who are your “expanders” or role models in this field? Why do they inspire you?
Bree: There are so many great academics and thought leaders in this space, but honestly, my favorite role models are my clients. The ones in the trenches, living and leading change on a daily basis.
One of my favorite clients told a story about some feedback he had gotten. He was proposing ideas, trying to make them stick, but ultimately pulling back when he sensed resistance or complexity. Another person in the organization told him: "You know what you have to do, right? You have to stay in the fire longer." What she meant was that he was backing off when the reality of change heated up. I know that instinct far too well! But the most successful change agents I know are the ones who can live in the fire.
Almost like those deep-sea creatures that survive on carbon from thermal vents—these are people that can survive in habitats uninhabitable to most. They can keep the faith and the north star, work through resistance with empathy and grace, and continue to pace themselves while they do so. Those people are my heroes, and I'm so lucky to partner with them.
Breean: What is one small shift or tiny act of rebellion that anyone can do to be more open or ready for change?
Bree: Tiny act of rebellion! I love that. Fear of change can be a phobia just like a fear of dogs. And similar to an exposure therapy approach, one way to increase your comfort with change and find a sense of agency in doing so is to run tiny experiments in your life.
Simply ask yourself, "What happens if...?"
Maybe it's "What happens if I put teriyaki sauce on my sandwich?" or "What happens if I share my idea with our CEO?" or "What happens if I send this slightly awkward text message to an old friend?" or "What happens if I show up to a video meeting in pajamas?"
Just run some experiments! There are enough times in life when change happens to us. Let's have as much fun as we can with the change we can control.
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Bree Groff is a speaker, change agent, and Principal at SYPartners—and she’s on a mission to help companies not just embrace change, but get good at it.
